First of all, I understand that gaining advantage from being in an offside position is a judgement call. The best answer is that you are offside if the referee says you are offside.

However, with that said. How many of you saw games decided when defenders either stepped up for a trap or just left an attacker in offside position only to have the ball PLAYED to that attacker who then scores a goal? This happened this year with both of my boys teams. Both teams are a win away from moving up a division.

I have no problem with a player offside in a crowded box, but when a defender intentionally leaves a player in offside position only to have this turned into a headstart on a breakaway, it is unfortunate.

I realize that the problem is usually due to the fact that te linesman IS HUMAN. Their eyes get tired in the wind and sun and they will not see everything. That's just part of the game. Basically, here is what I would like to see. When centers see that their linesmen are either not into it or they are not sure about their decisions. PLEASE do what you can to help them improve.

Just curious, if anyone else saw a game winner on a blown offside call?

Actually, I saw both of the games you are referring to. In both cases, the player was not in an offside position at the moment the ball was struck. The linesman in both cases made the right call.
I'm also curious. Has anyone else seen games lost and opportunities to advance to a higher division wasted because of a coach's ill-advised efforts to utilize an offside trap on set-plays?

In both of these games were you standing directly behind the linesman at the time so you had the exact view they had or were you 10 or 15 yards away/ Also, how long have you been a referee?

Armadillo,
You saw the u17 game where the other team's parents laughed and said "Wow, we got lucky on that one". Hmm. I think the parents on the other team disagree with you on that one. Now, I'm not being sour grapes here. There are 80 minutes to win or lose a game. I'm just saying that the centers need to encourage their linesman to pay attention and don't get caught being so lazy that you are 30 yards out of position. I agree with you on not running a trap on set plays. it is easy to beat that IF THE LINESMAN is paying attention to know which players were still onside when the ball is kicked. I have seen that botched many times this season too. We have all probably benefitted on those calls where the player receiving the pass wasn't in offside position, but they call it anyways.

BTW we have some VERY good referees in the league. I know they must be frustrated with some of the linesmen that they are assigned. All I am saying is do what you can to ENCOURAGE them to stay in position and help them to know what to look for. It isn't easy. My son has had many good referees advise him on how to improve. Notice I am asking for these referees to be encouraged and taught. Not belittled. Not fired. Encouraged.

Crochet,
I agree with your point. Another reason to agree with my first sentence. But linesmen talking to someone, watching other games, not staying around the line of defense but instead being 30 yards out of position. Hmm, you're defending this?

That's the risk of playing the offsides trap. If you do not get the call you have just let a defender in behind you.

There is a problem with all of our refs and it is not the offsides rule. The play here is allowed to be waaay to aggressive. Defenders are reckless, overly aggressive and unskilled in their challenges. Because the fouls are not called the kids grow up notknowing what is a foul is and isn't.

I agree on that also. Maybe if the referees weren't working so hard to keep the game from turning into a brawl they wouldn't get as mentally and physically fatigued. When the game is reckless and you have players running into each other, it is pretty hard to decipher who was at fault. That is why some refs let it go. They figure if that's how they want to treat their bodies, oh well.

High school coaches especially need to teach the proper way to close on an attacker with a good defensive stance and how and when to make a deliberate tackle. Currently, the game of soccer could easily have for it's soundtrack that song that says "Let the bodies hit the floor". Although it might seem exciting to our adolescents who are under the influence of testosterone, it is the cause of a lot of expensive injuries and fights.

I have no problem with the tactical use of the offside trap. It's fun to see player's like Messi disect it with precision. He pushes the line back as far as possible and stands toe to heel with the defender. His breaks on a through ball are legendary.

Offisides inside the goalie box can be a tricky call for a linesman when there are 18 pairs of feet playing pinball between the posts. The ball bounces around so quickly it is very difficult to keep pace with who touched it last. Let alone the decifer of whether or not it was a pass before the final strike. Which, in turn, would create cause for the linesman to raise his flag.

mrclean wrote:
Crochet,
I agree with your point. Another reason to agree with my first sentence. But linesmen talking to someone, watching other games, not staying around the line of defense but instead being 30 yards out of position. Hmm, you're defending this?

I always defend Classic League referees. My experience is that overall they know the game, are well experienced, focus on the game, and make a solid effort to keep up with the game and stay in position. Are they perfect? Of course not.
As to your situation, if indeed the linesman was "30 yards out of position" on a set play I agree that is a problem. But I really doubt that is the case, as I've never seen a Classic league linesman 30 yards out of position on a set piece where the ball will likely be placed near the goal. They know to be in line with the last defender.
And contrary to my sarcasm, I wasnt there so I dont know. Just skeptical whenever I hear complaints that referees cost a game.

That's the problem I have with this type of post, the 'referee cost us the game' attitude. Do they miss calls? Sure. Could they enforce fouls more aggressively? Probably. Do they cost games? Unlikely - there is not a game where a noncalled handball in the box couldn't have ended differently due to something else that happened in that game (as mentioned earlier - there are XX more minutes in the game). When a kid missed a pass that would have resulted in a 'certain' goal...games are full of could have/would have situations, that's what makes it fun.
I was watching an academy game (youngsters) - ended 0-0, shot taken just after whistle (went into goal, everyone cheered, but figured out immediately it didn't count as the game was over). The coach argued that it should count - how on earth can the game not be over, when time is over (assuming no stoppage)? Watch most coaches when these questionable offside calls are made - they will likely complain for a minute and then they are over it. They don't walk away thinking the referee cost them the game (the majority of them, that is). They might walk away thinking the referee was horrible, but usually not that they cost the game.
If a call was crucial in a promotion game, that's a tough deal, if it's in a potential relegation game, well....what happened the rest of the year?
The offside trap isn't much different than pulling on a jersey - sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't.

I certainly didn't mean to sound like I am criticizing referees. My comments were more tactical in nature of what to teach defenders. My sons were taught to push up quickly. In fact, I have seen coaches pull defenders off the field for not getting up the field quickly. After seeing a few (not many) missed calls, I'm not sure I am comfortable leaving an attacker in offside position. Sometimes the consequence of stepping up can be severe.

Again, wasn't blaming a loss solely on a missed call and no criticism intended. I am a little concerned about the referees being placed on such a high pedestal that they are no longer encouraged to be consistent. Consistency regarding what is a foul, caution, or dissent really does need to be improved. It's just as confusing as Calculus 3 trying to figure it out at times. I think the level of play would improve when players learn what is acceptable play and conduct.

mrclean wrote:I certainly didn't mean to sound like I am criticizing referees. My comments were more tactical in nature of what to teach defenders. My sons were taught to push up quickly. In fact, I have seen coaches pull defenders off the field for not getting up the field quickly. After seeing a few (not many) missed calls, I'm not sure I am comfortable leaving an attacker in offside position. Sometimes the consequence of stepping up can be severe.

Again, wasn't blaming a loss solely on a missed call and no criticism intended. I am a little concerned about the referees being placed on such a high pedestal that they are no longer encouraged to be consistent. Consistency regarding what is a foul, caution, or dissent really does need to be improved. It's just as confusing as Calculus 3 trying to figure it out at times. I think the level of play would improve when players learn what is acceptable play and conduct.

If the outcome of a game is dependant on the linseman, the coaches game plan wasn't executed to it's potential. The only match where a ref is placed on a high pedestal is tennis. Consitency shouldn't be encouraged, it should be required. Regarding player/ref (mis)conduct, set the DC SG Final as the benchmark.

mrclean wrote:First of all, I understand that gaining advantage from being in an offside position is a judgement call. The best answer is that you are offside if the referee says you are offside.

...

Just curious, if anyone else saw a game winner on a blown offside call?

Short answer, absolutely. The sleepy eyed kid at an 8:00 a.m. match that misses and misses the call. Ughhh!

I'm not sure why it's call the off-sides "trap". It's soccer. You can't allow the offense to linger in your end so you push up. After all forwards are generally a lazy bunch and would rather just hang around your 18 and wait around for the ball. Why would you want to accommodate that?

gpoo wrote:

mrclean wrote:First of all, I understand that gaining advantage from being in an offside position is a judgement call. The best answer is that you are offside if the referee says you are offside.

...

Just curious, if anyone else saw a game winner on a blown offside call?

Short answer, absolutely. The sleepy eyed kid at an 8:00 a.m. match that misses and misses the call. Ughhh!

I'm not sure why it's call the off-sides "trap". It's soccer. You can't allow the offense to linger in your end so you push up. After all forwards are generally a lazy bunch and would rather just hang around your 18 and wait around for the ball. Why would you want to accommodate that?

I used pushed up so far, all my friends were goalies. Hang around tell a few jokes, create a distraction, then boom, rip a hole in it.

mrclean wrote:
Just curious, if anyone else saw a game winner on a blown offside call?

Offsides can be a difficult call and there is no doubt there are numerous errors with this call. However, In my experience, many times if not most times, the person who has a problem with offsides not being called doesn't understand that the player must be onside when the ball is kicked not when the ball is received.

since when do U17s play 80 minutes? if i were a coach, i'd have a bigger issue with losing out on 10 whole minutes of the match than any single offside call, missed or not. U17s and above are 45 minute halves, right?

i really have a problem with coaches blaming referees for the "outcome of the game" call. i understand that the refs have a important part in the game, but they are there for both teams to deal with. a coach should be worried with his own team. how about your player that turned the ball over at midfield that led to the goal? or the wide mid that hasnt pushed up with the defense and held the attacker onside for the match-winning goal? or the coach that made the tactical mistake by putting in a player at center mid that isnt as technical as another? is it really always the referees fault? methinks not!!!

If anybody ever has issues with CL refs, just drive over to Russell Creek and watch a few PPL games. I was watching a friend's son and witnessed the worst reffing I have ever seen. The game ended up with 3 red cards and 6 yellow. No control whatsoever. Yikes.

A ref can and does set the tone early in a match by making calls and issuing warnings. The older kids will press a ref to see what they can get away with. A push here, an elbow there. On the ball and off. Whenever you see a game with lots of cards, the ref has let the player's emotions get out of control. I saw a CL game earlier this Spring where the refs got into it on the sideline at halftime. That game got out of control quickly in the second half because the kids picked up on the dissension. Overall, I am satisfied with the refs in CL this year.

Think I figured this while ref thing out after last nights game....

Quick counter attack, forward takes close shot that hits defender as he is slipping and falling to the ground. Defender gets called for hand ball in box that results in pk..simple enough right..?

Nope.. some parents yelled that there was NO hand ball and that the ball hit defenders face as he slipped and fell while cutting back. Others thought defender was only protecting his face from a shot as he was falling and call should not have been made at all as completely unintentional. Others thought it was an intentional block of the hands.

Just saying..everyone see's things a little differently. Ref's are human.

b0013 wrote:Think I figured this while ref thing out after last nights game....

Forward takes close shot that hits defender as he is slipping and falling to the ground. Defender gets called for hand ball in box that results in pk..simple enough right..?

Nope.. some parents yelled that there was NO hand ball and that the ball hit defenders face as he slipped and fell while cutting back. Others thought defender was only protecting his face from a shot as he was falling and call should not have been made at all as completely unintentional. Others thought it was an intentional block of the hands.

Just saying..everyone see's things a little differently. Ref's are human.

If a ref's call determines the outcome, the game plan was not fully executed.
It was a great night for soccer. Terrific sunset, slight breeze comfortable temperatures and an exciting game. It seemed like the fields got slippery around sunset as I saw a few players lose their footing.

finish1 wrote:

b0013 wrote:Think I figured this while ref thing out after last nights game....

Forward takes close shot that hits defender as he is slipping and falling to the ground. Defender gets called for hand ball in box that results in pk..simple enough right..?

Nope.. some parents yelled that there was NO hand ball and that the ball hit defenders face as he slipped and fell while cutting back. Others thought defender was only protecting his face from a shot as he was falling and call should not have been made at all as completely unintentional. Others thought it was an intentional block of the hands.

Just saying..everyone see's things a little differently. Ref's are human.

If a ref's call determines the outcome, the game plan was not fully executed.
It was a great night for soccer. Terrific sunset, slight breeze comfortable temperatures and an exciting game. It seemed like the fields got slippery around sunset as I saw a few players lose their footing.

This is a thread about ref calls, not about last night's game.. I was only using the example as to how people that see that same play...see it differently.

Read my post again..I did not comment if the call was right or wrong last night...besides, the pk was blocked by the keeper, so game was not determined by that play..

b0013 wrote:

finish1 wrote:

b0013 wrote:Think I figured this while ref thing out after last nights game....

Forward takes close shot that hits defender as he is slipping and falling to the ground. Defender gets called for hand ball in box that results in pk..simple enough right..?

Nope.. some parents yelled that there was NO hand ball and that the ball hit defenders face as he slipped and fell while cutting back. Others thought defender was only protecting his face from a shot as he was falling and call should not have been made at all as completely unintentional. Others thought it was an intentional block of the hands.

Just saying..everyone see's things a little differently. Ref's are human.

If a ref's call determines the outcome, the game plan was not fully executed.
It was a great night for soccer. Terrific sunset, slight breeze comfortable temperatures and an exciting game. It seemed like the fields got slippery around sunset as I saw a few players lose their footing.

This is a thread about ref calls, not about last night's game.. I was only using the example as to how people that see that same play...see it differently.

Read my post again..I did not comment if the call was right or wrong last night...besides, the pk was blocked by the keeper, so game was not determined by that play..

Glad you mentioned your post. I found it very difficult to get past the first sentence. I'm sure it makes perfect sense to you, but its pure gibberish. My first statement is in regards to ref calls (nod to topic). Next, I waxed poetic about last evening's ambience. I finished with another general statement regarding footing. In all, I consider my post clear, concise and accurate. I made no reference to whatever game you spoke of, which, by your own admission is "off topic." Good luck on your future posts. I hope you're not a linesman (see how I brought it all back around to topic?).

Now that's funny. I don't care who you are!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD4xwK13lGk&feature=related

Actually, the reason I started yelling that it hit his face was from an idea I got from my older son's game a few years back. Their team was attempting to defend a packed goal box where the ball kept bouncing to the other team. My son dove head first to successfully block a shot with his face. About 5 seconds later, they take another shot and he dives again and blocks it with his face again. By then the parents are laughing because we couldn't believe he was using his face ( cautionable by the way ). Then almost the same kind of thing happened and it was hard to tell if it was his hand or his face, but the ref called a hand ball. The coach immediately shouted "Referee! He doesn't use his hands or feet. He uses his face!" It was hilarious.

As soon as the ref made that call, I was hoping he might reverse it if there was a mark on his face. Nope, it hit his arms. On the way home, me and my two boys had three different opinions. The guilty defender thought that it shouldn't have been called because he didn't have time to move his arm. My older son who is also a referee said he wouldn't have called it because he didn't reach out to hit the ball and that it probably would have hit his body instead. I argued that it should have been a PK because it did hit his arm and it prevented a goal. Even in the same family on the same team, we had three different opinions.

mrclean wrote: Even in the same family on the same team, we had three different opinions.

Somehow I can see that happening...

LOL . You already know us too well.

finish1 wrote:A ref can and does set the tone early in a match by making calls and issuing warnings. The older kids will press a ref to see what they can get away with. A push here, an elbow there. On the ball and off. Whenever you see a game with lots of cards, the ref has let the player's emotions get out of control. I saw a CL game earlier this Spring where the refs got into it on the sideline at halftime. That game got out of control quickly in the second half because the kids picked up on the dissension. Overall, I am satisfied with the refs in CL this year.

now the ref controls the players emotions? a teenage boy's emotions??? thats something i'd like to see done with my own eyes. any referee that can contrl a players individual emotions should immediately be transferred to Prof. Xavier's School for the Gifted to nurture and develop that talent to be used for good and not evil. next thing, the referees will be using his telekinesis to control the players first touch and defensive positioning.....
A different perspective, if you see a game with a lot of cards, maybe the players arent controlling themselves. I've said this before, the referee only can mark a foul AFTER it has been committed by a player. he cant blow his whistle before the foul happens in an attempt to prevent it. I argue that that would be interfering in the game. there are things a referee can do to manage the way players play, but if a player commits a foul, the only thing the referee can do is blow his whistle and give the card. the players still must bear most of the responsibility to "control" themselves to play fairly. of course, if the players did that, there'd be nothing for the parents to yell at the referee about......and thats no fun, is it?

twotone wrote:

finish1 wrote:A ref can and does set the tone early in a match by making calls and issuing warnings. The older kids will press a ref to see what they can get away with. A push here, an elbow there. On the ball and off. Whenever you see a game with lots of cards, the ref has let the player's emotions get out of control. I saw a CL game earlier this Spring where the refs got into it on the sideline at halftime. That game got out of control quickly in the second half because the kids picked up on the dissension. Overall, I am satisfied with the refs in CL this year.

now the ref controls the players emotions? a teenage boy's emotions??? thats something i'd like to see done with my own eyes. any referee that can contrl a players individual emotions should immediately be transferred to Prof. Xavier's School for the Gifted to nurture and develop that talent to be used for good and not evil. next thing, the referees will be using his telekinesis to control the players first touch and defensive positioning.....
A different perspective, if you see a game with a lot of cards, maybe the players arent controlling themselves. I've said this before, the referee only can mark a foul AFTER it has been committed by a player. he cant blow his whistle before the foul happens in an attempt to prevent it. I argue that that would be interfering in the game. there are things a referee can do to manage the way players play, but if a player commits a foul, the only thing the referee can do is blow his whistle and give the card. the players still must bear most of the responsibility to "control" themselves to play fairly. of course, if the players did that, there'd be nothing for the parents to yell at the referee about......and thats no fun, is it?

2T,
Don't you eralize that if a player gets a card, it will ruin his or her self esteem? I'm, for one, am not going to be responsible for additional therapy bills.
And as far as developing telekinesis, I think that is used by some coaches and clubs to levitate the money from your wallets.
Warmest regards,
Rm

Refmike wrote:

twotone wrote:

finish1 wrote:A ref can and does set the tone early in a match by making calls and issuing warnings. The older kids will press a ref to see what they can get away with. A push here, an elbow there. On the ball and off. Whenever you see a game with lots of cards, the ref has let the player's emotions get out of control. I saw a CL game earlier this Spring where the refs got into it on the sideline at halftime. That game got out of control quickly in the second half because the kids picked up on the dissension. Overall, I am satisfied with the refs in CL this year.

now the ref controls the players emotions? a teenage boy's emotions??? thats something i'd like to see done with my own eyes. any referee that can contrl a players individual emotions should immediately be transferred to Prof. Xavier's School for the Gifted to nurture and develop that talent to be used for good and not evil. next thing, the referees will be using his telekinesis to control the players first touch and defensive positioning.....
A different perspective, if you see a game with a lot of cards, maybe the players arent controlling themselves. I've said this before, the referee only can mark a foul AFTER it has been committed by a player. he cant blow his whistle before the foul happens in an attempt to prevent it. I argue that that would be interfering in the game. there are things a referee can do to manage the way players play, but if a player commits a foul, the only thing the referee can do is blow his whistle and give the card. the players still must bear most of the responsibility to "control" themselves to play fairly. of course, if the players did that, there'd be nothing for the parents to yell at the referee about......and thats no fun, is it?

2T,
Don't you eralize that if a player gets a card, it will ruin his or her self esteem? I'm, for one, am not going to be responsible for additional therapy bills.
And as far as developing telekinesis, I think that is used by some coaches and clubs to levitate the money from your wallets.
Warmest regards,
Rm

That's great professor RM.

2T, you are correct, and apparently a former gifted apprentice of Prof Xavier's. A ref sees a foul, blows a whistle and issues a card "AFTER" it is committed, not before. I am new to soccer and never understood that concept. Thanks for clafiying.