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AP Consequences

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Re: AP Consequences

Post by OP05 on 11/24/2015, 12:32 pm

I'm hearing, admittedly from 04 solar parents, that it's the 04s that will be next up for USSF academy.




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Re: AP Consequences

Post by Sprint on 11/24/2015, 12:34 pm

OP05 wrote:I'm hearing, admittedly from 04 solar parents, that it's the 04s that will be next up for USSF academy.  





I would have said the same thing up until about two weeks ago. I heard USSF is reconsidering the age brackets and U12 may be 05 for next fall. Hopefully they will decide by early next year.

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Re: AP Consequences

Post by OP05 on 11/24/2015, 12:43 pm

Yeah, the revised US age charts would certainly align with 05s going into academy. So who knows.

As near as i can tellx the only thong that is clear is that from now until signing day will be an interesting ride for AP 05s.



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Re: AP Consequences

Post by Just Sayin' on 11/24/2015, 12:46 pm

[quote="OP05"]I'm hearing, admittedly from 04 solar parents, that it's the 04s that will be next up for USSF academy.  


This looks like it has been updated from the U12 previous announcement.

http://www.ussoccer.com/stories/2015/10/16/13/30/151016-academy-to-launch-u12-program-in-2016

The U-12 Academy will adopt all aspects of the new Player Development Initiatives, which were recently announced by U.S. Soccer in another step of its commitment to long-term player development after being a best practice for the last 10 years. U.S. Soccer standardized small-sided games based on player age groups, while also aligning birth-year registration calendars with the start of the calendar year to run from January to December. The development initiatives, which will be a best practice in 2016 and a mandate by August of 2017, are focused on advancing youth players’ individual skill and intelligence, and providing players with the best opportunity to improve.

Then this would be 05's. ??

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Re: AP Consequences

Post by allen04 on 11/24/2015, 12:50 pm

Even if true; that just means the 04's & 05's would both be new to DA next year and the clubs would have to start both age groups with U13 splitting from U14.
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by finish1 on 11/24/2015, 12:57 pm

According to the new rules, next Fall the 05's will be U12 and the 04s are U13. For the Jan -Jul birth month kids, there is no change. For the Aug-Dec birth month kids that are not currently "playing up", they will skip a year.

The Fall 05 kids will go from U10 this year to U12 next year. That's a giant leap!
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by earbucket on 11/24/2015, 1:49 pm

allen04 wrote:Even if true; that just means the 04's & 05's would both be new to DA next year and the clubs would have to start both age groups with U13 splitting from U14.

I'm not sure how USSF will accomplish that unless they add another age to the DAs or make an age group disappear.

Next year for DA is slated for this.

U18: 99s with some late born 98s
U16: 00s
U14: 02s
U13: 03s
U12: 04s

The 01s would be pre-academy next year at U15.

So for 05s to be U12 in DA next year that would mean...

U18: 99s with 98s
U16: 00s and 01s
U14: 03s
U13: 04s
U12: 05s

So do, 02s completely skip the U14 DA age group and become U15 PA? And do 01s skip preacademy and get lumped in with 00s. Not sure that works with the DA concept. Or does this happen to other groups--Do the 00s jump from U15 to U18 where they compete with 98s and 99s?

To me it's hard to make the argument that 05s will be U12 in the DA landscape.



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Re: AP Consequences

Post by Sprint on 11/24/2015, 1:58 pm

earbucket wrote:
allen04 wrote:Even if true; that just means the 04's & 05's would both be new to DA next year and the clubs would have to start both age groups with U13 splitting from U14.

I'm not sure how USSF will accomplish that unless they add another age to the DAs or make an age group disappear.

Next year for DA is slated for this.

U18: 99s with some late born 98s
U16: 00s
U14: 02s
U13: 03s
U12: 04s

The 01s would be pre-academy next year at U15.

So for 05s to be U12 in DA next year that would mean...

U18: 99s with 98s
U16: 00s and 01s
U14: 03s
U13: 04s
U12: 05s

So do, 02s completely skip the U14 DA age group and become U15 PA?  And do 01s skip preacademy and get lumped in with 00s.  Not sure that works with the DA concept.  Or does this happen to other groups--Do the 00s jump from U15 to U18 where they compete with 98s and 99s?  

To me it's hard to make the argument that 05s will be U12 in the DA landscape.




I tend to agree with you and think it would be unfortunate for the 02s if that happened. If they structure it with the 05s as U12 then I see it as:

U12-05 DA
U13-04 DA
U14-03 DA
U15-02 PA if it continues to exist, or they would have to try and make the U16 DA team.
U16-01DA
U17/U18 as one age group with 00s and 99s trying out for those spots.

Another rumor I heard floating around is U15 PA is going away and USSF may replace it with DA so there would be DA from U12-U16 for each age group. Then one age group for U17/U18.



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Re: AP Consequences

Post by allen04 on 11/24/2015, 2:06 pm

Current application still has U15/U16 & U17/U18;


[url= DA Application]https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1DDaUZQFN4sXHQMXgFW0w9ye0l1LVifgPe_6i7xYYR2A/viewform[/url]
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by Preston P on 11/24/2015, 2:09 pm

I think everyone is simply guessing right now. Your first age chart is what ussda is planning for. But this is off from the rest of world. I've heard they will do what your saying then adjust again in 2017. Basically bringing in 03s and 04s this year.  Then next year move each age group up and bring in 06s and 07s.  This makes them calendar year and in line with rest of world.

If classic league takes the current u14 02 age group. Moves them to u15 but makes u15 the 02s they will accomplish this all in one move.

If this happens next fall the 02 would be u14 in ussfda abd u 15 in classic league.  Then following year 02 ussfda skip u15 and go u16 ussfda.  This would then align with classic league  

Until something is published, who knows but, if I were a betting man, this is it.

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Re: AP Consequences

Post by finish1 on 11/24/2015, 2:13 pm

Preston, what happens to the 05s in your scenario?
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by earbucket on 11/24/2015, 2:19 pm

Sprint wrote:
earbucket wrote:
allen04 wrote:Even if true; that just means the 04's & 05's would both be new to DA next year and the clubs would have to start both age groups with U13 splitting from U14.

I'm not sure how USSF will accomplish that unless they add another age to the DAs or make an age group disappear.

Next year for DA is slated for this.

U18: 99s with some late born 98s
U16: 00s
U14: 02s
U13: 03s
U12: 04s

The 01s would be pre-academy next year at U15.

So for 05s to be U12 in DA next year that would mean...

U18: 99s with 98s
U16: 00s and 01s
U14: 03s
U13: 04s
U12: 05s

So do, 02s completely skip the U14 DA age group and become U15 PA?  And do 01s skip preacademy and get lumped in with 00s.  Not sure that works with the DA concept.  Or does this happen to other groups--Do the 00s jump from U15 to U18 where they compete with 98s and 99s?  

To me it's hard to make the argument that 05s will be U12 in the DA landscape.




I tend to agree with you and think it would be unfortunate for the 02s if that happened.  If they structure it with the 05s as U12 then I see it as:

U12-05 DA
U13-04 DA
U14-03 DA
U15-02 PA if it continues to exist, or they would have to try and make the U16 DA team.
U16-01DA
U17/U18 as one age group with 00s and 99s trying out for those spots.

Another rumor I heard floating around is U15 PA is going away and USSF may replace it with DA so there would be DA from U12-U16 for each age group.  Then one age group for U17/U18.  



The option for 00s and 99s combined raises a question.  What happens to the late birthday 98s who are still in HS? That seems dumb to remove DA talent from the system at that age?  Perhaps those late birthday kids with a college offer in hand would relish the chance to play HS and then come to classic where more kids will be displaced.  There are 3 academy U18 teams with an average of 5 juniors each = 15 kids moving to classic league every year.  And one would hope these kids would do well in Classic.  

If they are included in U18 DA team then the 00s not only compete against the 99s, but the HS 98s as well.  
And this would happen every year.  The following year the 01s would compete against the 00s and the late birthday 99s.  I guess that would thin out the ranks for the DA teams, but there would be a built-in instability.



Last edited by earbucket on 11/24/2015, 2:25 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarify juniors on U18 DAs)

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Re: AP Consequences

Post by Preston P on 11/24/2015, 2:33 pm

Here goes my 2 cents
2016-2017
Ussfda
04-u12
03-u13
02-u14
01-u15
00-u16
99-98 u18

Classic
06-u11
05-u12
04-u13
03-u14
02-u15
01-u16
00-u17
99-u18
98-u19. Maybe combine 18 abd 19

Then following year 2017-2028 ussfda

06-u12
05-u13
04-u14
03-u15
02-u16
01-u17
O0-u18
99-u19 maybe combine the two 00 and 99 not sure.

They will end up adding a u19 to leagues as they will be needed for the final year.

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Re: AP Consequences

Post by Number13 on 11/24/2015, 2:52 pm

The whole AP thing is really simple and hard to complain about, when all you are talking about is age cutoffs.   A different group of kids gets to be the older kids.  Born late Dec, tough tittays.   No big deal.  

But once you start talking about byes and opportunities that only exist for certain age groups......its a clusterfuck to change labels mid-stream.  

I know a lot of folks mostly concerned about if their kid gets to play DA or PA next year.   It would be kind of amusing if they set up the 05s to get U12, U13, U14 DA while the 02s never get any of those.  Perhaps.  

I'm more concerned with the effect on the less elite kids like mine who play in leagues.  I don't care what they label the ages next year, its just labels, and they need to get the league labels in line with the age matrix by 2017.    Makes sense.   But there is the matter of the byes.   CL can and will do whatever they want, but it does seem like they really ought to just re-label the byes so that the current Fall kids are eligible to remain on their team.   If your U12 team earns a D1 bye this year, seems like they should have a bye in the 03 group next year...whether they call that U13 or U14.    On the surface I can see folks saying "it shouldn't matter" but it definitely does.   CCM is absolutely correct there.  Most people are on their current team because it makes some sense. Forcing 40-60-80% of the kids off of teams, rather than making it a choice, is just disruption for the sake of disruption.   A lot of people are not just walking across to the adjoining field to play with the older/younger team.   Will destroy a lot of teams, particularly the independent ones.   I guess its good that gas costs $1.7/gal.  

Would just be nice to know the deal.   Just rip off the bandaid and roll with it.   Look out U15 PPL.
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by Sprint on 11/24/2015, 2:58 pm

Number13 wrote:The whole AP thing is really simple and hard to complain about, when all you are talking about is age cutoffs.   A different group of kids gets to be the older kids.  Born late Dec, tough tittays.   No big deal.  

But once you start talking about byes and opportunities that only exist for certain age groups......its a clusterfuck to change labels mid-stream.  

I know a lot of folks mostly concerned about if their kid gets to play DA or PA next year.   It would be kind of amusing if they set up the 05s to get U12, U13, U14 DA while the 02s never get any of those.  Perhaps.  

I'm more concerned with the effect on the less elite kids like mine who play in leagues.  I don't care what they label the ages next year, its just labels, and they need to get the league labels in line with the age matrix by 2017.    Makes sense.   But there is the matter of the byes.   CL can and will do whatever they want, but it does seem like they really ought to just re-label the byes so that the current Fall kids are eligible to remain on their team.   If your U12 team earns a D1 bye this year, seems like they should have a bye in the 03 group next year...whether they call that U13 or U14.    On the surface I can see folks saying "it shouldn't matter" but it definitely does.   CCM is absolutely correct there.  Most people are on their current team because it makes some sense.  Forcing 40-60-80% of the kids off of teams, rather than making it a choice, is just disruption for the sake of disruption.   A lot of people are not just walking across to the adjoining field to play with the older/younger team.   Will destroy a lot of teams, particularly the independent ones.   I guess its good that gas costs $1.7/gal.  

Would just be nice to know the deal.   Just rip off the bandaid and roll with it.   Look out U15 PPL.


True, that is a much bigger issue is how they decide the byes.  If an 03 fall birth year kid is playing on his 04 team in CL this year, he may find himself out of a team next year and the bye from his old 04 team is in the 04 age group with a team he is no longer eligible to play for.  At least if they left it in the 03 age group the 04 birth year kids that help get that bye could have the opportunity to play up and keep the team together for the sake of fun and friends.  

If they leave the byes in the younger half of each team, they should clear the decks and everyone tries out for classic league next year fresh.  No byes for anyone and a massive qualifying tournament for all age groups U11-U19.  Find your new team and start over.


Last edited by Sprint on 11/24/2015, 3:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: AP Consequences

Post by Number13 on 11/24/2015, 3:06 pm

Sprint wrote:


True, that is a much bigger issue is how they decide the byes.  If an 03 fall birth year kid is playing on his 04 team in CL this year, he may find himself out of a team next year and the bye from his old 04 team is in the 04 age group with a team he is no longer eligible to play for.  At least if they left it in the 03 age group the 04 birth year kids that help get that bye could have the opportunity to play up and keep the team together for the sake of fun and friends.  

IF they do that, they should clear the decks and everyone tries out for classic league next year fresh.  No byes for anyone and a massive qualifying tournament for all age groups U11-U19.  Find your new team and start over.  


Well, what is the bigger issue is totally dependent on the beholder. Mine is the byes. The byes is just a local league thing that one would think could be sorted out in a sensible manner. Cause that is what youth soccer is about, a lot of people making good sensible adult choices. Very Happy Or throwing shite like monkeys to see if anything sticks.

An End of Days QT would be a fine way to kick off the 2016-7 CL season. Sign me up.
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by earbucket on 11/24/2015, 4:22 pm

Yes, I agree the bye situation will be a clusterf.  IMO what happens in DA will affect all kids playing soccer.

Hypothetical (taking Preston P's) scenario:

In 2017-18,

USSF DA U18:  includes 01s, 00s and some 99s.  There is no U17 as it is combined with U18.

Let's say 01 team (U15 PA) from prior year had 22 kids and 00 team (U16 DA) from prior year had 22 kids and there are 5 leftover kids from the 99s, all trying out.

If the DA U18 team takes 25 kids then that leaves 24 kids to join classic league teams. Now multiply that by 3 and we get 72 kids joining classic league teams. I would guess most of them would be 01s since they are the younger kids.  The injection of 72 DA level kids would displace more kids down the line.  

Consequences to that system.

The following year would those 72 kids be eager to try out again for the DA team?  

The DA team will have maybe five left over 00s and 22 02s trying out.  How many 01s would have been on the prior DA U18 team?  If the 01s come to try out after their year in classic league then there could be the same effect on the 02 age group.

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Re: AP Consequences

Post by Preston P on 11/24/2015, 6:52 pm

Maybe you get a u19 academy and u 17 academy instead of u 16 abd u 18. This keeps the older group 00 abd 99 in year 2 abd leaves 01 in the group below.

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Re: AP Consequences

Post by OP05 on 11/25/2015, 4:19 pm

Looking back at that updated release, it sure does read like the 05s will be eligible for u12 academy in Fall 2016. The article also links to the update age charts, which show 05s as u12:

http://www.ussoccer.com/coaching-education/resources/2015-player-development-initiatives

If so, that would be a good thing for the Solar 05 boys who otherwise might not have a D1 bye.

But it will be odd if some boys jump directly to DA without qualifying or ever playing select (some may dual roster?)?



Just Sayin' wrote:
OP05 wrote:I'm hearing, admittedly from 04 solar parents, that it's the 04s that will be next up for USSF academy.  


This looks like it has been updated from the U12 previous announcement.

http://www.ussoccer.com/stories/2015/10/16/13/30/151016-academy-to-launch-u12-program-in-2016

The U-12 Academy will adopt all aspects of the new Player Development Initiatives, which were recently announced by U.S. Soccer in another step of its commitment to long-term player development after being a best practice for the last 10 years. U.S. Soccer standardized small-sided games based on player age groups, while also aligning birth-year registration calendars with the start of the calendar year to run from January to December. The development initiatives, which will be a best practice in 2016 and a mandate by August of 2017, are focused on advancing youth players’ individual skill and intelligence, and providing players with the best opportunity to improve.

Then this would be 05's. ??

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Re: AP Consequences

Post by forward thinker on 11/30/2015, 9:24 am

My prediction is a lot fewer teams, especially for the independent clubs, and a lot of kids who quit soccer because they are out with their friends playing now and will have to adjust to a new team and coach or not play. How many teams does Classic need for it to be a viable entity?
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by OP05 on 11/30/2015, 9:57 am

Could be, if they don't fix the issue.

Their website now says something to the effect of: we hear the complaints about the proposed handling of the byes, and we are going to have another meeting to discuss the issue.

The (relaitvely) easy solution would seem to be leaving the byes with the older group, allowing kids to play up, and having QT for both 05 and 06 AP. But maybe there's something I'm missing.

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Re: AP Consequences

Post by finish1 on 11/30/2015, 10:42 am

If the byes are given to the older kids, then the current U11 teams will be U13 next year. How would the leagues back fill U12 and U11?

It seems to me that a more natural transition will be giving the byes to the younger kids. The current U11 teams would become U12 teams next year.
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by hanallalone on 11/30/2015, 10:59 am

Byes to older kids keeps CL teams intact, byes to younger kids hacks most teams into pieces and basically reshuffles the deck for all teams... Byes to younger kids may seem easier, but when teams that have a D1 bye are not even close to the team that earned the bye, you will have a diluted Classic League with D3 teams stronger than many in D1... How does that help the league? A QT for all ages or give the byes to the older kids is the only solution that keeps the competition in check...
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by Number13 on 11/30/2015, 11:09 am

finish1 wrote:If the byes are given to the older kids, then the current U11 teams will be U13 next year. How would the leagues back fill U12 and U11?

It seems to me that a more natural transition will be giving the byes to the younger kids. The current U11 teams would become U12 teams next year.

The simplest answer is that you just don't have U11. You add U18, you drop U11. Everybody gets "moved up" an age, byes hop up 2 years. But, can't imagine CL is going to give up the opportunity to add an age bracket. So you have qualifying for both 05 and 06 Ages to fill U12 and U11. That seems pretty easy. Well, none of this is easy, you are pulling more kids in on the front end that didn't expect to be in Select and making things more difficult on the back end with how you handle senior year and the Spring season. But hey, welcome to Birth year soccer.

There is no transition if you give the byes to the younger ages. Unless you think OMG explosion is a natural transition. If you give it to the older age, then everybody gets to decide what they want to do next year. Stay or leave. If you stay, no matter your age, you effectively just got 6 months younger relative to the competition. Oh well, that's probably not fatal. Again, most people are on their current team because it makes some sense. Yes, a chunk of the Spring b-day kids will elect to drop down and play in the younger age group. But not all. If you give it to the younger age then half (or more) of the kids get kicked off the team. No choice. Get lost. Which makes the other half nervous as hell. Which means total frigging anarchy in a lot of situations. Anarchy isn't the best way to get the kids to re-distribute in a way that gives you a quality league.

Hell, in the 03 D1 age group Texans ended up having to replace a whole team of kids. Anarchy. And this is the Texans. Who have zillions of kids and can offer whatever to try to fill spots. And they ended up fielding an APL team that gets blown out. Imagine that same scenario with EVERY TEAM. That is what happens with 50%+ forced turnover.

If you blow up all of the teams, some of it will get resolved, but in general I think you are going to end up with a very very uneven product. Which then makes people ask "how classic is CL?".

Maybe I'm just expecting the worst. We will see.
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by finish1 on 11/30/2015, 12:37 pm

OK, I understand the logic. I guess there is not clear direction from US Soccer on how to handle league play since the focus is on DA.

I don't see the leagues giving up an age group and the Select $$$ they represent. Adding an age group, yes, but deleting, no.

Besides, if U11 were to stay in the youth academy system, then some U10 players may be tempted to, OMG, play up. And we all know the permanent damage that would create in the physiological/psychological development of the youth in NTX. And, we can't have any of that!! LOL!!!
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by forward thinker on 11/30/2015, 4:44 pm

Yeah giving it the bye the younger boys would selectively prune my son off his team. And all but 3 kids would have to find a new team, including the coach's son. lol Effectively disbanding the team. Guarantee you that almost half the kids would quit soccer. Quite possibly the quality of teams and soccer in NTX would be thrown off until the current kids get through the system. I think the goal should be to keep teams together. Very naive view, I know.
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Re: AP Consequences

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