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AP Consequences

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Re: AP Consequences

Post by forward thinker on 11/30/2015, 4:44 pm

Yeah giving it the bye the younger boys would selectively prune my son off his team. And all but 3 kids would have to find a new team, including the coach's son. lol Effectively disbanding the team. Guarantee you that almost half the kids would quit soccer. Quite possibly the quality of teams and soccer in NTX would be thrown off until the current kids get through the system. I think the goal should be to keep teams together. Very naive view, I know.

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Re: AP Consequences

Post by finish1 on 11/30/2015, 5:08 pm

Wow! See I believe your team is a case in point of what's wrong with the current system. Teams are heavily weighted on Fall kids, which doesn't represent the true age group they are competing in. Now the teams will be true with their birth year and aligned with DA.

The caveat is now the system will be flipped and coaches will load teams with early birth year kids.

My vote is to give the byes to the early by kids. It's mayhem either way. Anarchy is necessary when the system is stale.
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by hanallalone on 12/1/2015, 7:52 am

What makes Classic League the top league? My answer would be the teams that play in it... That being said, IF CL chooses to give the byes to the younger kids (pretty much breaking up all of the D1 teams), there is no need to play CL... I'm certain Plano, Arlington, or even a new league would be more than happy to become the top league... All it would take is the majority of teams to move to the same league, a QT for that league, and a few other adjustments to keep the current teams together and have a brand new Super League in NTX... If CL doesn't want to do what it takes to keep thousands of players from being teamless and a multitude of coaches from losing what they have spent several years building, then why not just find a league that WILL do the right thing? If everybody moves to Arlington or Plano, then the only thing that changes is the name of the league and location of the fields... I will take that over having a diluted league where D3 teams (that have many younger players than D1 teams) are stronger than most D1 teams that are 25-30% of their 2015 roster... We want a strong league, and lets hope that we don't have to play elsewhere to get it... The entire process of D1-D3 works very well by allowing teams to move up or down according to their results... This filtering process is what makes the league so competitive... I think that CL has an opportunity to save their status / image, or to push a new spotlight league into existence by forcing established teams to split up..
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by finish1 on 12/1/2015, 7:59 am

hanallalone wrote:I will take that over having a diluted league where D3 teams (that have many younger players than D1 teams) are stronger than most D1 teams


Again, this is an argument that defines the problem. Teams loaded with older (Fall) players are defining what is considered good soccer. This needs to be changed.
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by Number13 on 12/1/2015, 8:25 am

finish1 wrote:Wow!  See I believe your team is a case in point of what's wrong with the current system. Teams are heavily weighted on Fall kids, which doesn't represent the true age group they are competing in. Now the teams will be true with their birth year and aligned with DA.  

The caveat is now the system will be flipped and coaches will load teams with early birth year kids.

My vote is to give the byes to the early by kids. It's mayhem either way. Anarchy is necessary when the system is stale.

So...what is "wrong" with the system is that we have too many of the kids born in the wrong timeframe playing?   But it will all be great once we prioritize Spring b-day kids all along and get aligned with DA?  

Um...ok.   Right now there are more Fall kids than Spring kids playing CL soccer.   I would guess.   In no way does this affect the good Spring kids.   Those kids are still playing and dominating vs their older Fall teammates.   Perhaps this actually makes them stronger before they get flipped to being the oldest kids in DA.   Those are the kids that eventually might get scooped up by a National ID program by USSF.   The fact that any age cutoff is going to lean towards older kids isn't "wrong"....it just is.   I don't see any more benefit in prioritizing a Jan kid than an August kid.   If you don't want older kids to define what is good soccer, then don't form teams at all. But switching, aside from the short-term turmoil, is no big deal either.

As far as the byes and turmoil goes, its just the math.   You have to fill 30 teams in each CL age group with kids.   Ideally kids suited for those leagues.  The best way to do that is to have kids who are currently playing in those leagues, on those teams, with friends and an acceptable commute....stay with their teams.   What % of the current players are Fall kids?   I don't know.   But CL does.   BB's team is 63% Fall kids.   Sounds like forward thinker's team is like 80% Fall kids.   I know Castro's team last year was around 80% Fall kids.   Lets say hypothetically its 65% Fall kids (which yes, is a LOT for 5 months vs 7 months).    Then you have the "survival of the fittest" 35% Spring kids.   You can either kick off 65% of the kids....freaking out the remaining 35% and leading to whatever sort of shenanigans...or you can ask the 35% of the Spring kids if they want to keep battling older kids along with the 65%, or slide down to the younger age group.   Seems an easy choice.   If you want batshit anarchy, it's certainly an easy choice.    

For bigger clubs, the whole thing MAY be an easy transition.   Keep the 35% in place, slide the 65%.   Maybe.  I made a rough count of U11-U16 teams in 15-16 CL.  Of the 180 teams, 75 of them are from small/independent clubs.   I can't imagine this will go well for those 75 teams.  Hell, it will be bad enough for them if they give the bye to the older group.   I would think this whole thing is going to cause some issues with the leagues.

Perhaps I am too married to my own situation to see the possibilities.   It might be spectacular to stand on a hillside and watch Hiroshima in the distance.
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by allen04 on 12/1/2015, 8:56 am

It might be spectacular to stand on a hillside and watch Hiroshima in the distance.

Oppenheimer = Klinsman, Texans (Big Club) = Truman, CL = Enola Gay, AP = Little Boy, Hiroshima = your team
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by LLHowie on 12/1/2015, 9:11 am

I agree. If there is a preference towards older players now, changing the age brackets will just slide that preference from an August birthday to a January birthday. I wonder how much of a preference it is towards an older birthday or I believe it is more to a BB who has started to physically develop faster. It won't fix any problems on that front. If the bye goes to the younger group it will cause many teams, mostly independents, to have to break up if they want to keep their bye.

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Re: AP Consequences

Post by Number13 on 12/1/2015, 9:13 am

I think we already surrendered after getting firebombed by Lemay (Castro?) for two years.   This is just piling on, Nagasaki style. Very Happy
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by OP05 on 12/1/2015, 9:22 am

Again, it seems pretty simple to leave the byes with the older groups and then have 05 and 06 AP qualify. That also seems more realistic than a massive QT across all ages.

The 05's currently playing select would be the interesting age group. Are 05s being told they can stay with their soon to be 04 AP teams? Or are they being told to start looking.

My guess is that many 05s currently playing select aren't being told anything, but may be told to look elsewhere when the spring 2016 season wraps up. Which will make for a lovely May to signing day game of musical chairs.


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Re: AP Consequences

Post by hanallalone on 12/1/2015, 9:24 am

Let's just hope that our teams share the luck of Kokura...
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by Sprint on 12/1/2015, 9:28 am

hanallalone wrote:What makes Classic League the top league?  My answer would be the teams that play in it...  That being said, IF CL chooses to give the byes to the younger kids (pretty much breaking up all of the D1 teams), there is no need to play CL...  I'm certain Plano, Arlington, or even a new league would be more than happy to become the top league...  All it would take is the majority of teams to move to the same league, a QT for that league, and a few other adjustments to keep the current teams together and have a brand new Super League in NTX...  If CL doesn't want to do what it takes to keep thousands of players from being teamless and a multitude of coaches from losing what they have spent several years building, then why not just find a league that WILL do the right thing?  If everybody moves to Arlington or Plano, then the only thing that changes is the name of the league and location of the fields...  I will take that over having a diluted league where D3 teams (that have many younger players than D1 teams) are stronger than most D1 teams that are 25-30% of their 2015 roster...  We want a strong league, and lets hope that we don't have to play elsewhere to get it...  The entire process of D1-D3 works very well by allowing teams to move up or down according to their results...  This filtering process is what makes the league so competitive...  I think that CL has an opportunity to save their status / image, or to push a new spotlight league into existence by forcing established teams to split up..


I think a new QT for all age groups and doing away with the current byes makes the most sense.  If you give it to the older kids the younger ones have to find a new team, if you give it to the younger ones, the older ones have to find a new team.  Best solution is to pick new teams ( age pure) in May, anyone that wants to can play up so  you could conceivably keep the exact same team you have this year ( still play with all your friends) and then that team would qualify and be placed in a competitive league based upon how they do in the QT.  

This also opens up a great time for a new league to emerge to challenge CL.  Not sure why FCD doesn't take this over and make it into another profit center.  They have the fields in Frisco and they  manage MoneyGram so there would be no complaints about Richland. If they mandate all their teams play in their league ( they make up most of the teams anyway) then all the other clubs would follow.

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Re: AP Consequences

Post by Number13 on 12/1/2015, 9:44 am

I think that gets to why there will be no great "QT to end all QTs".   Cause that is a little too close to starting over, and the main thing CL has going for it is inertia...and the fact that clubs have byes there...which is something they can "sell".   Once everybody is starting over from square one, who knows what may happen to market share.  

Which does all suggest that CL, for their own sake, need to take some care on how they handle the byes.   But, similar to Sprint's point on a new league, if they get FCD and Texans and LP and Solar on board....then the rest will get carried along.  

If you give it to the older ones, the younger ones don't have to find a new team.  They might want to.  But they don't have to.   That seems like an important point.   Will be interesting.
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by finish1 on 12/1/2015, 9:55 am

Finally, this thread gets some lively conversation going. What we have are opposing camps of thought:

One is to move the team up according to the oldest kids on the roster. (Skip a year)

One is to align the team with the age pure directive from US Soccer. (Move to the next year)

Both can be justified through conversation and fact based arguments and neither will be painless. The problem is our current system is flawed at its very foundation. I'm not saying I have any answers at all or that the age issue won't be flipped after the AP dream is realized. I am saying the leagues have to realign and it will be a mess in the short run, either way.

I also agree with Sprint regarding the league reshuffle. This is the time for the MLS franchises to take a leading role in youth soccer across the board.
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by hanallalone on 12/1/2015, 10:05 am

Sprint wrote:
hanallalone wrote:What makes Classic League the top league?  My answer would be the teams that play in it...  That being said, IF CL chooses to give the byes to the younger kids (pretty much breaking up all of the D1 teams), there is no need to play CL...  I'm certain Plano, Arlington, or even a new league would be more than happy to become the top league...  All it would take is the majority of teams to move to the same league, a QT for that league, and a few other adjustments to keep the current teams together and have a brand new Super League in NTX...  If CL doesn't want to do what it takes to keep thousands of players from being teamless and a multitude of coaches from losing what they have spent several years building, then why not just find a league that WILL do the right thing?  If everybody moves to Arlington or Plano, then the only thing that changes is the name of the league and location of the fields...  I will take that over having a diluted league where D3 teams (that have many younger players than D1 teams) are stronger than most D1 teams that are 25-30% of their 2015 roster...  We want a strong league, and lets hope that we don't have to play elsewhere to get it...  The entire process of D1-D3 works very well by allowing teams to move up or down according to their results...  This filtering process is what makes the league so competitive...  I think that CL has an opportunity to save their status / image, or to push a new spotlight league into existence by forcing established teams to split up..


I think a new QT for all age groups and doing away with the current byes makes the most sense.  If you give it to the older kids the younger ones have to find a new team, if you give it to the younger ones, the older ones have to find a new team.  Best solution is to pick new teams ( age pure) in May, anyone that wants to can play up so  you could conceivably keep the exact same team you have this year ( still play with all your friends) and then that team would qualify and be placed in a competitive league based upon how they do in the QT.  

This also opens up a great time for a new league to emerge to challenge CL.  Not sure why FCD doesn't take this over and make it into another profit center.  They have the fields in Frisco and they  manage MoneyGram so there would be no complaints about Richland. If they mandate all their teams play in their league ( they make up most of the teams anyway) then all the other clubs would follow.

I think were on the same page here, and it has been lingering question for quite some time now...  Where is the new league we have all pondered in the past?  Opportunity knocks...
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by Number13 on 12/1/2015, 10:12 am

Laugh. Yes, people are suggesting that the local leagues handle the age pure mandate in different ways. But Nobody is advocating that we don't align with US soccer mandates. Everybody accepts that birth year is the way things are going next year. This is just debating local implementation and labeling and disruption.
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by finish1 on 12/1/2015, 10:43 am

Let's say the leagues decide to give the byes to the oldest kids on your roster, you skip a year and keep going.

Now, let's say another team in the same league decides to build a team that is heavily loaded with early birth year kids. Your team is now 8-12 months younger than their competitors. That's going to be a painful season.

What about Dallas Cup? The current U11 teams are now U13 overnight and trying to prepare for Dallas Cup. Do you take a bunch of late birth year kids and early birth year kids from a year younger to that tournament? Ouch!
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by PremierLeagueFan on 12/1/2015, 10:45 am

Number13 wrote:Laugh.  Yes, people are suggesting that the local leagues handle the age pure mandate in different ways.  But Nobody is advocating that we don't align with US soccer mandates.  Everybody accepts that birth year is the way things are going next year. This is just debating local implementation and labeling and disruption.

I think the best players (I have a feeling you might know more than a few) will continue on with their existing teams and as long as age pure doesn't exclude their option of playing up in age, NTX Soccer will survive the change and achieve a level of conformity with the international system that may or may not benefit our players.
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by Number13 on 12/1/2015, 10:59 am

The people with access to the most kids are going to most effectively form teams in whatever system is established.   If you are FCD or Texans and you have some sort of overall plan (maybe they do, I don't know) you are going to be able to better re-align to whatever the new age system is.   All the little guys are gonna be iceskating uphill, more than normal.   No matter how you slice it.

Frankly, I don't think our team of 02/03 kids...in its current composition....if cast into the sea of 02 BY....would get killed.  Would they lose more...yes.   Would they get drilled?   No, I doubt it.    If you took the same group, and added 2-3 Spring 02 BY kids to it, they would probably be pretty solid.   If you gave the bye to the younger birth year...thus reducing our roster to 6 kids....whatever end product we had would probably end up getting drilled in the 03 (younger) age group.   Cause I don't think many of the younger kids would stay once the numbers dropped that low (and their friends left) and then you would be trying to fill a bye without any natural transition of kids.   I think that would be a similar story for many of the smaller club teams.  

So, which is more painful?  

As for Dallas Cup.  Dallas cup is in March.  You will be playing people in the same boat as you this year.   And next year, if your team sucks cause its too young....well, you probably won't be getting an invite to Dallas cup.   So I struggle with the relevancy.   Yes, if you took a really crappy team to Dallas Cup or any other highly competitive tourney, you would probably lose badly.  

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Re: AP Consequences

Post by PremierLeagueFan on 12/1/2015, 1:32 pm

I think some teams have the benefit of playing older than their years and others will probably be better off by reconstituing their rosters.

I am not a big fan of the size argument if it extends past the GK or Central Defenders. We are seeing the big change and even though it's challenging us, as far I can see, moving a good mixed 03B team successfully to 02B is nothing more than a gauge of that teams overall ability to adjust to size by using skill.

I have been watching Castro play up in the 02 PA league and they are solid and have a clear path to the future even though they are late 02's that played 03B.

A team like Odyssey or Castro is more than a collection of boys,  it is a tight knit group of core players who have been together for a long period of time under a consistent coaching staff so I am more concerned that those types of teams remain unaffected by the rule change since they have a greater amount of team investment that shouldn't be arbitrarily halted by the age pure process.

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Re: AP Consequences

Post by finish1 on 12/1/2015, 2:20 pm

Yes, but that argument can be made about the top team in just about any age group. In the scope of world football, the US is a giant rec league with lots of volume. Unfortunately, our rec league puts out a consistently poor product.

We need better players, not better teams. Our system needs to change from top to bottom and AP is a start. We also need the clubs to focus more on skill and developing players, not teams.
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by LLHowie on 12/1/2015, 2:37 pm

How does AP help give the US better players? I completely agree with the second part of your statement but think that comes with more training for coaches.

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Re: AP Consequences

Post by Number13 on 12/1/2015, 2:42 pm

finish1 wrote:Yes, but that argument can be made about the top team in just about any age group. In the scope of world football, the US is a giant rec league with lots of volume. Unfortunately, our rec league puts out a consistently poor product.

We need better players, not better teams. Our system needs to change from top to bottom and AP is a start. We also need the clubs to focus more on skill and developing players, not teams.

Howie beat me to it. How is switching the year cutoff going to produce better players? Cause everywhere else in the world is on the BY system and they have better players? Sweet Jesus...correlation, causality, jeepers creepers. We got the same kids. With the same coaching. And the same incentives.

Again, there is nothing wrong with switching to BY. I don't think its evil. It clears up a lot of things like "what age am I?" and makes DA/advanced rec follow the same timeline. Its fine. And eventually it will be the norm. But, if you are only interested in our advanced rec system, which is the VAST majority of people, it may well be a gigantic pain in the ass to those currently in the system. It seems like you should try to manage that pain in the ass locally the best that you can.

Like I could give a flying phuck about the US's place in the global economic hierarchy if it means you just fired me from my job and the alternative is 30 miles away.
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by Sho'Nuff on 12/1/2015, 3:01 pm

Some men just want to watch the World burn.

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Re: AP Consequences

Post by Number13 on 12/1/2015, 3:19 pm

Soccer_Cynic wrote:Some men just want to watch the World burn.

Is this the point where we have to go to 52nd Street and try to save the Spring b-days, while the Fall ones die on Avenue X?
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by finish1 on 12/1/2015, 3:33 pm

January is the new August. Same poop different pile.
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Re: AP Consequences

Post by PremierLeagueFan on 12/1/2015, 4:20 pm

finish1 wrote:Yes, but that argument can be made about the top team in just about any age group. In the scope of world football, the US is a giant rec league with lots of volume. Unfortunately, our rec league puts out a consistently poor product.

We need better players, not better teams. Our system needs to change from top to bottom and AP is a start. We also need the clubs to focus more on skill and developing players, not teams.

The teams with better quality create better players for the older age groups when and where it matters most. At this particular age group, team quality is a direct result of player quality and consistent coaching.

These few teams at the top play well becuase they are individually effective players that are unencumbered by the ball and are making the transition to group play and leadership on the pitch. They have a better development environment because the group has a consistent skill set and the level of internal challenge they put upon each other develops that higher level of performance.

Castro teams have gone so far as to have competition between two separately developed groups which ends up benefitting both. 

Odyssey has a strict level of quality borne out of the pace at which they move the ball and the decision making required by their attacking style of play.

This would not be possible outside of these teams because most of us are in a more forgiving team environment composed of many different players skill levels that we can hide behind.

I had a few parents tell me how surprised they were by the influence that a few of the Odyssey players had on their team and how they were able to raise the teams quality by pushing them to a higher pace and tempo.

I believe that is the ultimate goal of development which is to place similar BB's together to form more competition, but I also know that the idea is easier to discuss than to implement which is why I hope some teams can keep developing as a unit and be left intact until we reach more parity within our player pool.
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