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Elephant in the Room

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Elephant in the Room

Post by Socceropath on 8/1/2017, 12:21 pm

Its taken me a few days to digest Rush not making it to D1. I can't help wondering how much the ludicrous tourney setup had an affect. Injuries? Last minute roster changes? It would be easier to wrap my head around 1 game, but really it without seeing these games in person the underperformed in BOTH the Celtic and FC Fast.
Regardless, what's done is done. Bottom line is playing in D2 vs D1 for a year is not the end of the world.

But I also wonder some of the trickle down affect for u12, in particular DA. IMO 4-5 of these kids are DA caliber. We can all agree that truly standout (Elite) players can come in from any situation and make one of the 3 DA squads. I'd argue that there's less than 10 Elite players in '07 right now. Where I'm sure to get some arguments is what happens to that next tier of really good, but not elite player? I think there's 50+/- of these players in '07. What is their path to DA? Certainly the easiest path is to be a top 5 player on one of the top 2-3 teams at FCD/Texans/Solar. The familiarity within the club is reasonably used as a tie-breaker vs a similarly skilled player from an independent, right? I mean it sounds reasonable. I'm not a coach and I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night, but that would certainly be my approach. Unless you're an Elite level player, any coach in his right mind would rely on some sort of familiarity. There is certainly a scouting element as well. The DA coach will attend some D1 games and will make note of opposing Independent players that impress. So the real question is how feasible is it to get enough exposure from a D2 Independent team to get a realistic shot at DA for U12. I'm guessing more than 1 Rush parent is asking themselves the same question right now.

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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by DragonStryker on 8/1/2017, 12:37 pm

75 DA slots
25 at each club

FCD:
Most of FCD Academy
A few from FCD Youth and FCD Blue
Where are the other 6 to 8 coming from?

Solar:
1/2 of Mckinney and Kennington (maybe more)
A few from Volkan, Martinez, Lanier
Another 8 to 10 slots remain (less if more of McK or Ken are taken)

Texans:
Most of DT Dallas
A few from DT Red, South, and West
Another 8-10 slots likely remain

So you've probably got 40 to 50 slots soft circled at this point with another 20 to 30 slots up for grabs.

From memory there are some funky rules surrounding Players at one DA club trying out for another DA club. That's going to limit movement if true to the superstars as the others, I'd assume, would need more than some practices in June to lock down a spot.

How early will pool practices start? These will be make or break for the kids on the bubble at the DA clubs as it'll give them an early opportunity to impress or rule themselves out.
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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by Socceroo on 8/1/2017, 12:43 pm

I'd say you will have an avg of 5 slots open at each of the Big 3 for players from other clubs...It has been a fact that about 80% of DA players in year 1 come from within the club...
It also depends who the coaches are that are getting the DA Gigs....Some of the coaches at the top teams do not have the min certification necessary to be a DA coach. So this might affect the pool of players. No question familiarity with players play a big role. Specially at the first 2 years.

So there is an advantage for being a player at a team whose coach will be the DA coach. That is just how it goes.


Last edited by Socceroo on 8/1/2017, 12:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by Guest on 8/1/2017, 12:44 pm

To be honest, most these good and elite players have already mapped out their plan for DA. I'm not sure what happens this season will change their plans much. The recruiting of these players has already begun and coaches are already familiar with them. Its the kids who haven't shown much in the past but who develop a lot this year who will be struggling to get noticed if they are playing D2. There are two Rush kids I can think of who I'm pretty sure are already on a few coach's radar.

And to be honest, they probably should have attempted to address their DA concerns before this tournament. The time was during open practices. This was the best year to get in with one of the DA clubs. I spoke to one of the coaches at one of these clubs and he told me they will reward loyalty. If a kid is Messi, absolutely he makes it, but if he has 5 or 6 good kids from outside the club and 5 or 6 from inside, he will take the ones from inside first, even if the outside ones are slightly better. To him it would have to be a noticeable difference. They believe the loyalty to the club counts.

I think a lot of the Rush kids and certainly a lot of the Liverpool kids are going to be in a huge battle for a DA spot if that is what they want. Again, the elite players make it, the good players are in for a fight.

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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by KOSoccer92 on 8/1/2017, 1:04 pm

At what age does the ECNL kick in for Liverpool?

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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by DragonStryker on 8/1/2017, 1:17 pm

Boys ECNL starts at u14 I believe (04's this year). Question is, will the Liverpool Owen parents drink the kook-aid and hang around until then with the promise of ECNL in their future or will the top players bolt for DA next season.

Secondarily, will they start a JDL equivalent on the boys side to keep from losing their top boys at u12/13 to DA.
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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by TXSoccerBall on 8/1/2017, 7:31 pm

With the recent "Pulisic Blueprint" article is the shine of DA tarnished a bit. Maybe it is better to be a top player on a lesser team than being a cog on a DA team. The 06s had 13 D1 teams coming from a DA org. This year 9 from DA orgs. If your BB is in a good situation and is developing...why make the jump to DA next year? I think this question is rattling around the minds of many. I do think many are waiting to see how a year in D1 plays out.

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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by DragonStryker on 8/1/2017, 8:00 pm

It's also worth mentioning at u12 there are still a lot of kids playing other sports. That'll keep some out of DA voluntarily as well.
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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by Socceroo on 8/1/2017, 8:35 pm

Plus, just because a kid is DA material, the family might not want to make the far drive 4 times a week for practice. I know for a fact that 4 stud NTX players this year, that could start at any of the 3 DAs, decided to stay at a D1 team and one of them stayed at a D2 team.

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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by JogaBonitoTX on 8/2/2017, 12:09 pm

I like that DragonStryker put some thought into the numbers. Having just watched my son go through it, I'll add a couple thoughts.

Quoting DragonStryker:
FCD:
Most of FCD Academy
A few from FCD Youth and FCD Blue
Where are the other 6 to 8 coming from?

Solar:
1/2 of Mckinney and Kennington (maybe more)
A few from Volkan, Martinez, Lanier
Another 8 to 10 slots remain (less if more of McK or Ken are taken)

Texans:
Most of DT Dallas
A few from DT Red, South, and West
Another 8-10 slots likely remain

So you've probably got 40 to 50 slots soft circled at this point with another 20 to 30 slots up for grabs.

END QUOTE

1 ) This time, with the 06's... A number of players came from boys that had been playing up. Solar had 8 or so 06 boys that played 05 D1 Classic, for example. Texans also had 06's playing 05.

There are 07's playing U12 DA and 06 Classic league that no doubt have DA plans. I'd add them to the numbers as they will take some of the spots. There are at least 4 on Solar's U12 DA, for example.  

2) The clubs will draw from a lot more than 2 or 3 teams. I know that this year one of the three drew from 8 different teams at the club. Five of those were ones and twos. This is where they pick up 1 star, pick up somebody with a lot of potential, reward loyalty, play club politics, etc. That soaks up more of the spots DragonStryker is assuming are up for grabs.

3) In looking at the thought process around building U12, you really need to consider the roster change from U12 to U13. Rosters get cut down from 24 to 18 players. 6 players, at least, will be cut in one year.

If they may not be around in a year, who do you take the chance on? These are great spots to grab a player who can play up as you know they'll be around in a year. Also a great spot to grab some other boys at the club that maybe are not quite at the level but show good potential... see who develops over the next year. It is harder to make the case to give these spots to boys in the age group from outside the club. This dynamic makes the math a little tighter, again, on the boys coming from outside the club.

Anyway... just some observations from the latest go.

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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by DragonStryker on 8/2/2017, 12:22 pm

Don't disagree and had forgot to account for the 07's at Solar DA this year (is it 3 or 4?). Leaves a small handful of slots assuming they snatch a boy or two from teams not mentioned.

Know the boys dual rostered at FCD are all on FCD Academy presently so they were accounted for. Unsure if there are any 07's playing 06 D1 at DT presently. Anyone aware of any?


Last edited by DragonStryker on 8/2/2017, 12:30 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : I can't spell this morning)
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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by Socceropath on 8/2/2017, 12:32 pm

JogaBonitoTX wrote:I like that DragonStryker put some thought into the numbers. Having just watched my son go through it, I'll add a couple thoughts.

Quoting DragonStryker:
FCD:
Most of FCD Academy
A few from FCD Youth and FCD Blue
Where are the other 6 to 8 coming from?

Solar:
1/2 of Mckinney and Kennington (maybe more)
A few from Volkan, Martinez, Lanier
Another 8 to 10 slots remain (less if more of McK or Ken are taken)

Texans:
Most of DT Dallas
A few from DT Red, South, and West
Another 8-10 slots likely remain

So you've probably got 40 to 50 slots soft circled at this point with another 20 to 30 slots up for grabs.

END QUOTE

1 ) This time, with the 06's... A number of players came from boys that had been playing up. Solar had 8 or so 06 boys that played 05 D1 Classic, for example. Texans also had 06's playing 05.

There are 07's playing U12 DA and 06 Classic league that no doubt have DA plans. I'd add them to the numbers as they will take some of the spots. There are at least 4 on Solar's U12 DA, for example.
 
I don't think we'll see as much of that this year as a good number of the '06s elected to play up to stay with their existing teams. The 07's didn't have that opportunity last year.  Obviously the Solar DA players have to be accounted for.


2) The clubs will draw from a lot more than 2 or 3 teams. I know that this year one of the three drew from 8 different teams at the club. Five of those were ones and twos. This is where they pick up 1 star, pick up somebody with a lot of potential, reward loyalty, play club politics, etc. That soaks up more of the spots DragonStryker is assuming are up for grabs.

Again I think some of that was a function of the limited time to consolidate talent in the AP split debacle.  I think historically the 2-3 team number is accurate and the '07s are more likely to return to normal in this regard

3) In looking at the thought process around building U12, you really need to consider the roster change from U12 to U13. Rosters get cut down from 24 to 18 players. 6 players, at least, will be cut in one year.

If they may not be around in a year, who do you take the chance on? These are great spots to grab a player who can play up as you know they'll be around in a year. Also a great spot to grab some other boys at the club that maybe are not quite at the level but show good potential... see who develops over the next year. It is harder to make the case to give these spots to boys in the age group from outside the club. This dynamic makes the math a little tighter, again, on the boys coming from outside the club.

Spot on assessment.  Thanks for the insight!

Anyway... just some observations from the latest go.

Great post Joga, definitely gives us more to think about.  It remains to be seen how much the AP split trickled down to affect the DA transition.  And how much of that will translate to the '07s.  Well done!

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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by Socceroo on 8/2/2017, 12:38 pm

Also, who is to say 07's currently playing 06DA will not move up to U13 DA.

And remember, i cant stress enough the importance of who the DA coach is...i know for a fact that there are 3 06's playing 05 DA simply because parents didnt like their 06 DA coach. Obviously these kids were good enough to play up. But there are alot of things to consider here other than just soccer skills.

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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by Bears on 8/6/2017, 5:30 pm

Socceroo wrote:Plus, just because a kid is DA material, the family might not want to make the far drive 4 times a week for practice. I know for a fact that 4 stud NTX players this year, that could start at any of the 3 DAs, decided to stay at a D1 team and one of them stayed at a D2 team.

It's a huge commitment for families especially when you have other kids who are actively engaged in extracurricular activities AND your son also plays another sport he really enjoys. I don't think it's as easy or as obvious of a decision as some would make DA out to be. A third and critical factor that will weigh heavily into our family's decision will be the dangers of specialization too early.

"The "increased emphasis on sports specialization has led to an increase in overuse injuries, overtraining, and burnout, according to a 2016 report from the American Academy of Pediatrics."

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/07/25/539334374/student-athletes-who-specialize-early-are-injured-more-often-study-finds

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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by Ron Mexico on 8/6/2017, 11:14 pm

I think this is the biggest lie in youth soccer- this idea that your sons soccer career depend on him playing DA or classic league at 10. Hard to even type it.

The DA rosters will be filled with the best talent- the clubs have no loyalty to their past players. They want the best and will take no matter where it comes from. If your kid has a good coach and is developing it doesn't matter where he plays until maybe 13-14.
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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by davito on 8/7/2017, 6:59 am

Yes and No. Soccer is subjective. Kids develop a reputation with the coaches, players and parents within their age group. The ones who have been on top teams from young ages are well known and well connected. That is an advantage over the kid who shows up later and is unknown. They have to play a bit of catch up to build their reputation.
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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by factsmatter on 8/7/2017, 9:54 am

davito wrote:Yes and No. Soccer is subjective. Kids develop a reputation with the coaches, players and parents within their age group. The ones who have been on top teams from young ages are well known and well connected. That is an advantage over the kid who shows up later and is unknown. They have to play a bit of catch up to build their reputation.

I couldn't agree more. That's how life work. To show up as an unknown, you have to be phenomenal (elite) to unseat the players that have been there.

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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by earbucket on 8/7/2017, 9:57 am

davito is correct. DA Coaches are adding players who are a significant level above the average player on a team and there are not that many of those players out there. Especially when you weed out the several players in classic who could play in DA, but choose not to due to HS or club coach loyalty.

The difference between the clubs is that FCD will add talented players from anywhere while Texans and Solar additions rely on the ill fitting players of their fellow DA teams or players moving to the area who were not recruited by FCD.

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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by dadof3 on 8/7/2017, 12:02 pm

Like many of you, I see the loyalty extending as far as the end of the bench...I would be very careful about this statement:

"I spoke to one of the coaches at one of these clubs and he told me they will reward loyalty. If a kid is Messi, absolutely he makes it, but if he has 5 or 6 good kids from outside the club and 5 or 6 from inside, he will take the ones from inside first, even if the outside ones are slightly better. To him it would have to be a noticeable difference. They believe the loyalty to the club counts."

Speaking to a club coach about whether or not they are loyal right before signing...well, what answer would you expect...Of course they will be loyal if the kid is a little bigger, faster, stronger...until another one comes along that possesses the same skills and is yet BFS...

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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by Uncleof05AP on 8/7/2017, 1:31 pm

As I understand it, there have been eighteen home-grown signings for FC Dallas.   Of those signings, it appears only five played for FC Dallas by the age of Fourteen.  It appears that ten of those players did not start playing with FC Dallas until being sixteen years or older.  (One of those players played DA for the Texans before moving to FC Dallas.)

To be fair, the DA program has changed during its inception, especially with the implementation starting at U-12.  Moreover, there is limited information concerning youth careers.  Thus, my research might be off.   Plus, I know not everyone plays DA in hopes of one day playing professionally for FC Dallas.  Nonetheless, maybe the statistics provide some validity to Ron Mexico's post.   I think that is especially true considering that the great equalizer of puberty will also have an impact on many things.

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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by Socceroo on 8/7/2017, 1:33 pm

FCD DA is a little dif than Solar or DT....

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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by bueler13 on 8/7/2017, 5:36 pm

Socceropath wrote:Its taken me a few days to digest Rush not making it to D1.  I can't help wondering how much the ludicrous tourney setup had an affect.  Injuries?  Last minute roster changes?  It would be easier to wrap my head around 1 game, but really it without seeing these games in person the underperformed in BOTH the Celtic and FC Fast.
Regardless, what's done is done.  Bottom line is playing in D2 vs D1 for a year is not the end of the world.  
Dallas Rush did not make it because us parents put too much pressure on our kids instead of telling them to go out and play and have fun.  Against FC Fast we hit the post twice and gave up no shots in the second half or maybe one.  Against Celtic we were up 2-1, had a goal taken away to go up 3-1 for "goalie interference" and gave up a penalty in last five minutes.  No excuses though we did not finish the job.  With that being said we dominated this weekend by outscoring opponents 29-1 and one of those we played will be in D2 we beat 10-1.  In the end we will get to work on weaknesses of our games, get to work on new formations, and not have to grind out a win like our team does week in/week out.  We will be playing in multiple tournaments against the D1 teams and will do pretty well I believe.  Our team did not add any players, which we tried through guess players. I think if you watched our games we just did not finish our chances and that is soccer.  Really our kids will be okay and may learn a lot from not getting what we thought we deserved.  They could of sulked and struggled this past weekend but didn't and outclassed the three teams we played.  Life lessons suck but may be a blessing in disguise.  See you guys in the tournaments and it will be okay.

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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by just-a-dad on 8/7/2017, 5:59 pm

maybe the blessing is that you all did find out you are putting too much pressure on the kids. seems you are taking the positive out of it now. I find I do it sometimes as well. I wonder how much the kids actually enjoy all of this crap honestly.

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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by Bears on 8/7/2017, 7:04 pm

Bueler13: May I get your thoughts on DA? As a parent of a player on a team with no direct route to DA with Rush, I'm curious if that's been the problem in closing some of your high caliber guest players.

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Re: Elephant in the Room

Post by bueler13 on 8/7/2017, 10:44 pm

First off we had one guest player for two tournaments and he was a very good player.  He decided to stay with his team that is ten minutes away plus he has played with them for a while.  Loyalty wins out plus distance of practice. I can tell you my son could of gone to one of the big three along with another one of our players. We had an opportunity of possibly playing up with the DA depending on how we acclimated, etc...  We decided out of loyalty to our team we have been with for five years to stay and try and qualify for D1.  It didn't happen and yes I questioned by decision briefly, but in the end it is still the right decision to stay.  We have great practices, my son comes home excited about what they did in practice and he still has freedom to play other sports.  Guys and Gals this is tough to decide what is best for YOUR kid but as I said earlier the parents put too much pressure and we learn from our mistakes.  DA will be there for the good players no matter what age they are.  I am a high school coach, club coach and a rec coach.  I tell all of my high school players that if they want to do DA they have to do what is best for them, but DA is a business and a professional commitment that your whole family has to be in for. I have an older son and a younger son and this year was not the right year for us.  Understand North Texas soccer is the one of the most competitive organizations in the US where a lot of the teams 2-15 would be the top team in another state. It is not the end of the world and we all need to get better on the sidelines, what is important for now and it is not the end of the world in D2 because someone has a plan and we are just along for the ride.

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Re: Elephant in the Room

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