I have not read every post, so this may have been pointed out already. Nevertheless, here goes.
The bottom line in the US, not just North Texas, is that we do not have a soccer culture. Nations that consistantly put out top quality talent do. Everyone wants to make comparisons to gridiron football and the players we are losing to that particular sport. However, I think we are missing the proper comparison, which is basketball. Think about how many basketball hoops you see everyday in driveways, schools, and parks. We have effectively created the strongest Basketball culture in the world and also produce, by no accident, the greatest players in the world in the sport.
The Advantage that takes place in a sports culture is that children are constantly being coached by osmosis. They play on courts beside and often with players, adults and other children alike, who are, just by their own personal knowledge of the game, teaching the children. No offense to Coerver and others out there that claim to have the "greatest training system" you just cannot account for a system that allows for quality play anytime.
Do any of you know of a place where you can drop your kids off and they can play soccer all day anyday of the week. Places like that just dont exist here, much less on every street corner. Some states do a better job of creating this atmosphere than others. Hence those states placing more kids than Texas on National and International squads. Personally, I think most clubs here sell parents on the the "Greatness of a Coach" at much to young an age. Coaches are needed to help with fundamentals and base skills, but in the end great soccer players become great because they are given the ability to become artists on the field. Our children are just not given the time to completely explore their own creative abilities. That happens best in "free play" situations. How often are your kids playing with a mixed group of kids and adults, not to be coached, but just to play for the love of the game. Find those opportunities and we will start seeing more players from Texas on the national and international stage.
BTMason,
Mansfield FC

I could not disagree more. The USA is producing some of the worst fundamental basketball players in the world. Dunking, traveling, and fouling mean the USA is losing its capability at the international level. Coach Mike (Nat team coach) agrees and you should read his stuff. Strong fundamental skills, despite a soccer oriented culture, means Croatia and others in Eastern Europe will eclipse us on the world stage. While i agree that it would be great to have more open time to play...this is true for every sport. Kids no longer play at those baskets...unless part of an organized sport, kids no longer play outside. Basketball is dead in the suburbs and football is not much better. They play in an organized settting...otherwise they sit inside and play video games. Not too much better in the inner city neighborhoods.

I agree on parts with BT. We were discussing this topic offline the other day and I made the same comparision regarding basketball goals in so many driveways and cul-de-sacs. Lots of kids playing against their siblings and neighbors. Then I remembered in Europe as kids and we would just throw an pair of boots on the ground for goals. Even with my kids, we have used sticks. I agree most that our biggest competitor right now is the video game! I kept them out of my house as long as possible, but they are here to stay. Just have to strike a balance. Creativity is available in all sports within the framework of discipline and skills fundementals.

go99 wrote:Lol, give us a shout when the world produces a Michael Jordan or Lebron James. Average height in the US is well below europe and the idea that a sound fundamental game will beat them is laughable. What they are missing is the same that is missing in our soccer, the magic, imagination and creativity. Yes we will produce fewer of those players because basketball is going the way of soccer. The coaches step in to teach and make money and kill everything that is special in the players. The free play is disappearing, the creativity being replaced by "fundamentals". The genius coach replaces the player and the game dies. Gonna go with BTmason on this one

Fact #1 USA not current world champion - that would be Spain
Fact #2 USA not currently ranked #1 - that would be Argentina

International basketball does not allow traveling and fouls common in NBA. NBA is strongest league in the world, but the USA has been in decline for at least a decade. I did not make this up...this is the opinion of Mike S of Duke fame.

International players: Tim Duncan, Virgin Islands, Manu Ginobili, Argentina, Tony Parker, Belgium, Steve Nash, Canada, Pau Gasol, Spain, Dirk Nowitzki, Germany, Yao Ming, China

US born players in the NBA now less than 80% of total. 83 foreign players started the season on NBA rosters. My point? 20 years ago this would have been unthinkable (except for the exceptions like Hakeem the Dream).

Having hoops in backyards have not produced fundamentally sound players. I am not suggesting that the USA does not produce players, simply that hoops in driveways have not produced a large number of them. Simply put, Lebron and many other top players are physical freaks of nature. They are aberrations by nature in a sport where freaks of nature dominate. The USA, as i recall, is now ranked as the #2 for average height in the world after many years at #1. For a sport where height defeats skill (there is only 1 starting player in the NBA <6'0" in height) this matters. Unless you think that the world has no skilled basketball players at <6'.The USA will produce a world cup winning side when the USA begins to value skill and creativity over physicality. North Texas soccer on a Saturday values winning over all else, and guess what, when the refs are blind (many are) and fouls are brutally common, the USA produces big plodding players who get run over on the world stage in a sport where speed, creativity and skill trump size. Not true in any other American sport. Unless you think that you cannot throw a football at <6'4". Or a lineman who averaged 200#'s in the 1970s would not even make a high school squad today.

In Outliers Malcolm Gladwell discusses the Matthew Effect common in N. American team sports. This too is something less common is less structured environments like Brazil.Talk all the smack you want...the USA is not the current world champion in basketball and did not make the final. They have been uneven in Olympic play the lat decade or so since despite the 'dream teams'. I am not saying we do not generally dominate - we have. I am saying my kids, despite having a basketball net in the backyard will never make a team because they are not freaks of nature.

Wow! Rightback has only made two posts, and I think I'm in love! You are dead on in your assessment. I commend you on your insight.

[quote="Rightback"]

go99 wrote:Lol, give us a shout when the world produces a Michael Jordan or Lebron James. Average height in the US is well below europe and the idea that a sound fundamental game will beat them is laughable. What they are missing is the same that is missing in our soccer, the magic, imagination and creativity. Yes we will produce fewer of those players because basketball is going the way of soccer. The coaches step in to teach and make money and kill everything that is special in the players. The free play is disappearing, the creativity being replaced by "fundamentals". The genius coach replaces the player and the game dies. Gonna go with BTmason on this one

Fact #1 USA not current world champion - that would be Spain
Fact #2 USA not currently ranked #1 - that would be Argentina

International basketball does not allow traveling and fouls common in NBA. NBA is strongest league in the world, but the USA has been in decline for at least a decade. I did not make this up...this is the opinion of Mike S of Duke fame.

International players: Tim Duncan, Virgin Islands, Manu Ginobili, Argentina, Tony Parker, Belgium, Steve Nash, Canada, Pau Gasol, Spain, Dirk Nowitzki, Germany, Yao Ming, China

US born players in the NBA now less than 80% of total. 83 foreign players started the season on NBA rosters. My point? 20 years ago this would have been unthinkable (except for the exceptions like Hakeem the Dream).

Having hoops in backyards have not produced fundamentally sound players. I am not suggesting that the USA does not produce players, simply that hoops in driveways have not produced a large number of them. Simply put, Lebron and many other top players are physical freaks of nature. They are aberrations by nature in a sport where freaks of nature dominate. The USA, as i recall, is now ranked as the #2 for average height in the world after many years at #1. For a sport where height defeats skill (there is only 1 starting player in the NBA

RB on soccer, agreed. On basketball, not so much. Just because the international quality of our game has been in decline for a while (Dream Team 2?), doesn't dismiss the importance of hoops in the dway. It's where the sport was perfected by the youth of America in the last 50 years. Creativity starts at home. I'ts like pick-up football games in Europe or South America. House rules. No refs or coaches. Me and you. Us vs Them. Wouldn't it have been great to have access to a permenant football goal as a kid for neighborhood games? Professional , any country, are freaks of nature. They have that odd little quirk that makes them do what they do better than anyone else...

finish1 wrote:RB on soccer, agreed. On basketball, not so much. Just because the international quality of our game has been in decline for a while (Dream Team 2?), doesn't dismiss the importance of hoops in the dway. It's where the sport was perfected by the youth of America in the last 50 years. Creativity starts at home. I'ts like pick-up football games in Europe or South America. House rules. No refs or coaches. Me and you. Us vs Them. Wouldn't it have been great to have access to a permenant football goal as a kid for neighborhood games? Professional , any country, are freaks of nature. They have that odd little quirk that makes them do what they do better than anyone else...

Let me say that i hate basketball and that i could care less who leads in this sport. I will simply say that the international game is different, that the great coaches (USA coaches) decry the breakdown in American ability to play the sport - that the NBA version of the game is tricked up and fouling and traveling is so common that when they are called that players stare at the ref. Stars draw fouls for seemingly no reason.

I disagree that at the pro level all players are freaks. The FIFA player of the year is 5'6" tall. The greatest players of all time average well below 6'. Freaks? In skill perhaps, but there is nothing genetically different that prevents a US player from dominating. If skill mattered in basketball (it does not) then you would not have to be 6'6" to get a starting spot in high school.

Messi is a phenomenal footballer, but not your average short guy. He's a freak. No? You do what he does. Sounds to me what you're descrbing are character related deficiancies...yes, physically, we match any country in the world. Football skills, no. Too many flops in soccer today. Every country, every club. Character may kill soccer too.

finish1 wrote:Messi is a phenomenal footballer, but not your average short guy. He's a freak. No? You do what he does. Sounds to me what you're descrbing are character related deficiancies...yes, physically, we match any country in the world. Football skills, no. Too many flops in soccer today. Every country, every club. Character may kill soccer too.

He is not unusually strong, tall, etc. He is talented, but he is not a physical freak and was not eliminated from consideration because of some overriding characteristic. I cannot do calculus in my head either...so i do not work in advanced physics. If i had to do calculus in my head and had to be 7' tall to be a physicist...that would mean that being a freak was relevant. There is nothing genetic about our kids being able to play on the world stage.

go99 wrote:Also did a little checking and everything I can find has the average male height is the US outside of the top 20 in the world. I agree with RB on our soccer though

Depends on who you believe... and averages are deceiving. Some studies list us in top 10. Standard deviation is important as are the studies that isolate black males and white males. It is weird though how the Dutch have escalated their average 6" in a couple of centuries though.

Rightback wrote:

go99 wrote:Also did a little checking and everything I can find has the average male height is the US outside of the top 20 in the world. I agree with RB on our soccer though

Depends on who you believe... and averages are deceiving. Some studies list us in top 10. Standard deviation is important as are the studies that isolate black males and white males. It is weird though how the Dutch have escalated their average 6" in a couple of centuries though.

The Dutch have to keep getting taller to keep their heads above sea level.

Ok, you guys are gonna make me jump back in here to prove my point. Firstly anyone who says that hoops in america are not still used either 1. doesnt live in a subdivision with a significant population of 6 - 14 year olds. I do, and I see small pick-up games tacking place on a VERY regular basis. 2. You are not driving by parks with lighted courts or you havent been by the Y recently. The bottom line is, yes our Basketball Culture makes us head and shoulders above EVERY other country in the world in that sport. Still, I understand your need to point out stats soo, lets point some out.

USA Olympic Appearances - 16, Gold Medal - 13, do I really need to go any further? now lets address your point that the US is not current World Champions, or ranked 1 in the world.

The 2009 International US Team Roster consited of the following players; DJ Augustin, Ronnie Brewer, Kevin Durant, Rudy Gay, Eric Gordon, Danny Granger, Jeff Green, Devin Harris, Andre Igoudala, Kevin Korver, David Lee, Brook Lopez, OJ Mayo, Javale McGee, Phillip Milsap, Greg Oden, Anthony Randolph, Derrik Rose, Josh Smith, Russell Westbrook, and Thaddeus Young... can anyone spell BUSTERS?? Seriously this roster is comprised of 2nd tier NBA players and Internationally we are ranked 2nd?

Now let me show who we rostered for the 2008 Olympics: Carmello Anthony, Carlos Boozer, Chris Bosh, Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard, Lebron James, Jason Kidd, Chris Paul, Tayshaun Prince, Michael Redd, Daune Wade, and Dwight Williams. I don't think I need to explain the difference between these two rosters, and many would argue this was far from the "Best" possible team that the US could have fielded. Nevertheless, this team marched through the field not only without a loss but without allowing a team within 20 points of them. As for the current World's number 1, they played them twice and beat them by 30+ in the first game and 20+ in the final.

Obviously NBA players just dont put the same value on the World Championships as the Olympics.... Imagine that!

Now as I try to swing this thing back to soccer please remember that US can field 2nd tier teams that will rival most every International team, and we still have yet to consider how much development of these International players can be attributed to the MASS amounts of US 3rd tier player playing professionally abroad.

The Bottom line is clear. Where a true sports culture can be created, great players floursih. I dont disagree that we have a problem here in the States with coaches grabbing the biggest, fastest athletes they can find and teaching them to play as direct as possible. It is part of the problem, but walk a smaller skilled player to that same coaches practices and he would take notice. My only point with this post was to point out what we are missing.
There are many points that have been made where I completely agree. Yes, NTX soccer is primarily profit driven, still I dont understand why these large clubs cant dedicate 1 field to community play. Where players can just come and play freely anytime, open to players from every age group they train. I truely believe that if each club did this we would see a great increase in the talent in North Texas.

Just Me
BT

I agree with BT Mason on this one. Let me just ask one question. Are there any top players on the worlds best teams, Barca, Real Madrid, AC Milan, Bayern Munich Etc. there are no players from usa on the worlds top teams let alone any players who start for those teams. There maybe a handful of players playing in the primiere (spelling?) ship and some players playing internationally in lower division leagues but for the most part there are no really good usa players. Why is this? Probably because Americans do not know how to play soccer. They do not play enough soccer and they do not watch enough soccer. Most of the soccer that is played by the USA is kick and run and not very skillful. The only place in the world where you have to pay to have your Child trained in soccer is the USA and they are the worst at it. What a sad state of affairs. I wonder if it will ever change.

Ntx soccer clubs are achieving their primary goal- making a lot of money. We now have guys who can make 30-60k a yr who never played the game, and club owners who could be worth millions - so mission accomplisehed. There is no focus on developing the skills needed to be successful on an international level, but that's not the club's concern. Ask your doc if he cares about developing national or international level players. Their bottom line is the bottom line. The mls clubs will end up leading the way in player development because they can sign these kids and sell their contracts (money).

OB1 wrote:I agree with BT Mason on this one. Let me just ask one question. Are there any top players on the worlds best teams, Barca, Real Madrid, AC Milan, Bayern Munich Etc. there are no players from usa on the worlds top teams let alone any players who start for those teams. There maybe a handful of players playing in the primiere (spelling?) ship and some players playing internationally in lower division leagues but for the most part there are no really good usa players. Why is this? Probably because Americans do not know how to play soccer. They do not play enough soccer and they do not watch enough soccer. Most of the soccer that is played by the USA is kick and run and not very skillful. The only place in the world where you have to pay to have your Child trained in soccer is the USA and they are the worst at it. What a sad state of affairs. I wonder if it will ever change.

I am going to have to partially disagree with you on the direction of US Soccer. IT is getting better and we are starting to produce better players. See Clint Dempsey (leading scorer for Fulham in the EPL) and Stuart Holden, starter and one of the best players on Bolton of the EPL. (Although Holden was born in Scotland, he frew up in the USA). We are starting to see more and more players make it oversees.

Sprint wrote: I am going to have to partially disagree with you on the direction of US Soccer. IT is getting better and we are starting to produce better players. See Clint Dempsey (leading scorer for Fulham in the EPL) and Stuart Holden, starter and one of the best players on Bolton of the EPL. (Although Holden was born in Scotland, he frew up in the USA). We are starting to see more and more players make it oversees.

One of my dogs "frew" up last night on my carpet. Gross.

The OP made the point that basketball is widely available to everyday americans and soccer is not. On it's face that statement is true. You do see low quality games in every neighborhood. However, basketball played at a high level is probably less available than it's soccer equivalent. Don't believe me? Find a court where players are playing above the rim and try to get a game there.

Other than that, you really can't compare basketball and soccer. They are an apple and an orange. To me, the defining characteristics of soccer are skill and creativity. In basketball the defining characteristics are height and athleticism. Sure there is skill and creativity in the game of basketball, but there is a reason that tall athletic and relatively unskilled prospects are drafted every year in the NBA. This would never happen in soccer as learning the requisite skills takes many years.

On the topic of team USA's success in FIBA, I think the reason the US has been up and down all comes down to style of play and rules. For many years, the bread and butter of basketball in the US was the low post game. FIBA rules make the low post game less effective due to the extended key. The US was still dominant for decades because they were just way ahead of the rest of the world. But eventually the FIBA basketball world caught up. And in a game were your frontcourt players had to be able to shoot medium range jumpshots, all of a sudden the rest of the world had better personnel. But recently, the NBA rules against handchecking have caused a lot of teams to play a more European style ... where everyone shoots and you have to be able to score from short medium and long range. Now all of a sudden the US has frontcourt players like Chris Bosh, Rudy Gay, Danny Granger, and Lamar Odom. Combine that with the advantage the US always had in the backcourt and the US will likely be on top of the heap for the foreseable future.

Rightback wrote:

go99 wrote:Lol, give us a shout when the world produces a Michael Jordan or Lebron James. Average height in the US is well below europe and the idea that a sound fundamental game will beat them is laughable. What they are missing is the same that is missing in our soccer, the magic, imagination and creativity. Yes we will produce fewer of those players because basketball is going the way of soccer. The coaches step in to teach and make money and kill everything that is special in the players. The free play is disappearing, the creativity being replaced by "fundamentals". The genius coach replaces the player and the game dies. Gonna go with BTmason on this one

Fact #1 USA not current world champion - that would be Spain
Fact #2 USA not currently ranked #1 - that would be Argentina
International basketball does not allow traveling and fouls common in NBA. NBA is strongest league in the world, but the USA has been in decline for at least a decade. I did not make this up...this is the opinion of Mike S of Duke fame.

International players: Tim Duncan, Virgin Islands, Manu Ginobili, Argentina, Tony Parker, Belgium, Steve Nash, Canada, Pau Gasol, Spain, Dirk Nowitzki, Germany, Yao Ming, China

US born players in the NBA now less than 80% of total. 83 foreign players started the season on NBA rosters. My point? 20 years ago this would have been unthinkable (except for the exceptions like Hakeem the Dream).

Having hoops in backyards have not produced fundamentally sound players. I am not suggesting that the USA does not produce players, simply that hoops in driveways have not produced a large number of them. Simply put, Lebron and many other top players are physical freaks of nature. They are aberrations by nature in a sport where freaks of nature dominate. The USA, as i recall, is now ranked as the #2 for average height in the world after many years at #1. For a sport where height defeats skill (there is only 1 starting player in the NBA <6'0" in height) this matters. Unless you think that the world has no skilled basketball players at <6'.The USA will produce a world cup winning side when the USA begins to value skill and creativity over physicality. North Texas soccer on a Saturday values winning over all else, and guess what, when the refs are blind (many are) and fouls are brutally common, the USA produces big plodding players who get run over on the world stage in a sport where speed, creativity and skill trump size. Not true in any other American sport. Unless you think that you cannot throw a football at <6'4". Or a lineman who averaged 200#'s in the 1970s would not even make a high school squad today.

In Outliers Malcolm Gladwell discusses the Matthew Effect common in N. American team sports. This too is something less common is less structured environments like Brazil.Talk all the smack you want...the USA is not the current world champion in basketball and did not make the final. They have been uneven in Olympic play the lat decade or so since despite the 'dream teams'. I am not saying we do not generally dominate - we have. I am saying my kids, despite having a basketball net in the backyard will never make a team because they are not freaks of nature.

Fact USA is ranked #1 in the world in Basketball
http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fc/even/rank/p/rankMen.html

Fact USA is the current world champion in Basketball:
http://www.usabasketball.com/mens/national/10_mwc_results.html

Durant went off and basically owned the whole tournament. We beat Turkey for the Gold Medal 81-64. http://www.usabasketball.com/photos/10_mwc_Game9_box.pdf

What a difference a year makes.

I skimmed over some of the previous posts so forgive me if this has already been mentioned but a huge part of the problem in the decline of basic fundamentals in US Basketball is due to the kids going NBA without spending time in college and with the more recent changes spending only one year on a campus. Great coaches like Coach K at Duke and his counterparts have less time or no time to polish off the rough edges. Look at how fundementally sound Tim Duncan was after 4 years at Wake.

I saw an interview with Arsene Wenger of Arsenal and he was saying if a player isn't extemely technical by the time he is 14-16 years old he has no use for him because at that point a coach wants to spend 90% of his time on tactics. He doesn't have time to polish those rough edges. In American soccer we are spending too much time on tactics at a young age when we should be working on technical skills. And yes playing in your free time goes a long way towards that as well.

In American Basketball the kids aren't as good at the fundementals as they used to be but I would still say we are very much ahead of the rest of the world when we play our best players. And even that is while playing by their rules. We need to pick the right teams though. Coach K has figured out that you need a couple of mega-stars that can score at will but also the role players you would see on a normal NBA team. The 3 point specialist, the defensive stopper, etc... They made this adjustment last time and we won.

The German wrote:

FGFF wrote:
I saw an interview with Arsene Wenger of Arsenal and he was saying if a player isn't extemely technical by the time he is 14-16 years old he has no use for him because at that point a coach wants to spend 90% of his time on tactics. He doesn't have time to polish those rough edges. In American soccer we are spending too much time on tactics at a young age when we should be working on technical skills. And yes playing in your free time goes a long way towards that as well.

I guess that's the reason for winning all those trophies.

Have you seen Arsenals transfer $$$ spent compared with their competitors?? I think THAT is the reason for all those trophies. Or the lack there of that you are most likely inferring. Someone hit Wenger over the head and tell him he needs to go buy a Goalkeeper.

The German wrote:

FGFF wrote:

The German wrote:

FGFF wrote:
I saw an interview with Arsene Wenger of Arsenal and he was saying if a player isn't extemely technical by the time he is 14-16 years old he has no use for him because at that point a coach wants to spend 90% of his time on tactics. He doesn't have time to polish those rough edges. In American soccer we are spending too much time on tactics at a young age when we should be working on technical skills. And yes playing in your free time goes a long way towards that as well.

I guess that's the reason for winning all those trophies.

Have you seen Arsenals transfer $$$ spent compared with their competitors?? I think THAT is the reason for all those trophies. Or the lack there of that you are most likely inferring. Someone hit Wenger over the head and tell him he needs to go buy a Goalkeeper.

Neuer from Schalke is available for about 30mil Euros or you wait a year and he is free.

I'm not an Arsenal fan but, by your name, I am assuming you know more about Bundasliga than I do, so is Neuer for sure going to Bayern or is that just rumor?

The German wrote:[quote="FGFF] I'm not an Arsenal fan but, by your name, I am assuming you know more about Bundasliga than I do, so is Neuer for sure going to Bayern or is that just rumor?

Fact is that Neuer last week said he will leave the club and not extend the contract. His contract ends 2012 but as I said Schalke won't get a dime if they wait thalong. It is also true that Bayern wants Neuer actually this summer and is willing to pay a certain amount but they also could wait one more year if necessary. It's a big game and at the end Bayern will get what they want as usual.[/quote]

Wonder if Sir Alex might step in to try and outspend Bayern? I guess Van Der Sar is retiring. I know Arsenal won't spend the money even if it available to them. Wenger is too cheap.